This draft pamphlet, though, added "or goodness" as a third option. This was the first time I'd ever seen "goodness" used in this context, although, interestingly, I have seen it again since then on some Quaker blogs.
I've been struggling with my meeting for a couple of years now, and although I have been making efforts to return in recent weeks, have been on hiatus--not attending worship--since May of 09. Every week lately, as I've been trying to return, there has been some barrier to me attending meeting for worship, either at home or at the meetinghouse: I've been sick, the aforementioned patchouli-drenched hippy has sat down near me and I've had to leave the room, I'm so raw that a minor crankiness between me and a beloved Friend has led to a big emotional explosion on my part, or Yehva has fussed so persistently that I've decided to take her home.
I think most of these things would hardly be obstacles if I were more sure about my need and desire to be there. I think it is a sign of how fragile my intention is that a pebble in my path ends up feeling more like a military roadblock, complete with snarling dogs, circling helicopters with searchlights, and sarcastic immigration officers sneering, "And just what brings you to this part of town, girly?"
So, anyway, the committee brings this pamphlet draft that says Quakers believe in "that of God, or Spirit, or goodness, in everyone," and my heart sinks. One of my struggles with Quakerism is what I see as its secularization; I want to be part of a religion, not an affiliation of nice people with good intentions. The person presenting the draft asked the meeting for approval to print the pamphlet, and the immediate response was a number of voices saying, "Go ahead!" and "Good job!" and "Roll the presses!" and such like.
I thought that if it was really OK with my meeting to have a pamphlet published that equated "God" and "goodness," then I was definitely in the wrong place. And I also felt that I did not have it in me to be the lone voice of dissent; I really, in that moment, intended to let them go ahead and publish that pamphlet. And then, I thought, I would go home and write my letter withdrawing my membership.
"I'll stand aside," I said, which, many of you know, is that a Quaker does when she cannot unite with a decision of the meeting but recognizes that the meeting is otherwise in unity.
And the clerk accepted that. She was ready to move on, except that over the next couple of minutes, other people raised concerns as well. I don't remember about what, exactly; not the same as mine, I don't think. The M&O committee felt time pressure; they needed to get a pamphlet approved in time to have it printed for the open house. And the clerk, I think, felt time pressure, too--we used to have business meeting before our 12:30 p.m. meeting for worship, and that created a fixed end time. This was, if I recall correctly, our first business meeting in the new meetinghouse, and our first one on the new schedule: starting business meeting at 12:30 or so, after morning worship and the social hour, with nothing to force an ending on us if we ran long. And we were running long. Oh, so long.
Time pressure has got to be the number one cause of bad practice among Friends.
So, a few people raised concerns, but the clerk tried to move us along. "I heard a lot of approval in the room," she said, "and Su has agreed to stand aside..."
And damn if God didn't give me a word to speak in that moment.
I don't remember it very well--I often find that when what I have said is spirit-led is that I don't remember much of it afterward. But I said, "I may have been hasty," and then I went on to say something about "goodness" being a weak word, a word that seems to me to be almost completely about a human quality. God is not all about goodness, I said. God is a big dark hard mystery that we wrestle with, and it is a disservice to reduce God to this single quality. I said...I don't know what I said. But I was eloquent! Damn. And I felt as I said it that I was saying exactly what I meant, exactly what I needed to say. And I felt that it came inwardly from God.
We went on to have a good discussion. A couple of non-theist Friends spoke, and in hearing them I found raised up in me a concern for non-theist Friends in my meeting. I found myself wondering whether "we believe in that of God in everyone" has become an empty phrase we mouth, if half of us don't even believe in God; I found myself concerned that we were asking non-theist Friends to accommodate themselves too much; I went away musing about why we continue, as our first answer to the question of what Quakers are, to assert a question of belief as a defining thing when Quakers do not in fact share a unifying belief; and then I found myself wondering what, if not a belief in That of God in Everyone, does make us Quakers.
We were eventually able to unify around language for the pamphlet, much to the relief of the M&O committee. The woman who had presented it thanked us, and said, "I move every time we have this conversation," which felt true to me as well. This, to me, is the thing Quakers do better than anybody else I've ever encountered, this deep listening to each other (and, yes, to the Divine), and coming to a decision that respects all those voices. I felt pretty good after that meeting, actually, which was quite a change from "the first thing I'm going to do when I get home is write my anti-membership letter!"
And since then... *sigh.*
Yesterday I was at the meetinghouse for a committee meeting, and I found myself standing on the porch gazing at our sign, which is leaning against the wall there. "Red Cedar Friends Meeting," it says, and then the Quaker testimonies, based on the SPICE acronym: Simplicity, Peace, Integrity, Community, Equality.
I have always hated that acronym, without really thinking about why, beyond, "Oh, isn't that adorable, how my whole big messy deep religion can be summed up a cute little five-letter word?" (But I just googled for the SPICE acronym and found that I am not the only Quaker who doesn't love it.)
Yesterday, that word "integrity" really jumped out at me. This is a word we use in place of Truth, as in Publishers of Truth, the term early Quakers used to describe themselves. What truth? God's truth, as revealed to Quakerism's founder, George Fox.
Now, Quakers don't necessarily think there's one Truth for everybody (two people praying about whether they should take a certain action may well get different answers) and we have never claimed to posses the whole Truth. And some of what God revealed to Fox seems downright nutty to us now. But we have believed that seeking the Truth would lead to an increased measure of it, and that as our measures grew, we would find ourselves more and more in accord with each other. (Big generalizations there, many of which could be contested. It will do for now.)
"Integrity," though--there's another one of those human words. For a person to have integrity, her words and actions should be in accord with each other. But integrity does not require a person's words and actions to be in accord with God's will as they understand it.
Truth, on the other hand, calls us to consider not only our own human wishes and actions but God's. A person of integrity is not necessarily a person of God. A good person is not necessarily a person of God.
I want to be a person of God. I want my faith community to aid me in becoming a person of God. I want, in my faith community, to be able to use the word "God" without someone immediately following up with a comment about how uncomfortable they are with that word.
I do not like listing our testimonies as a way of defining ourselves. I don't like the SPICE acronym. And I don't like suggesting that what we strive for is personal integrity rather than Truth. Might as well put up a sign, I thought, reading: "Red Cedar Friends Meeting: We're Nice People."
Now, I recognize first, that this is getting really long and probably nobody is going to read it. But second, I recognize that there is probably no congregation of any religious body anywhere in which everybody is all heated up about discussing God and God's will. When my friend Julie and I were at the Festival of Faith & Writing in April, we both talked about how good it felt to be among people who wanted to wrestle with the questions we like to wrestle with. That festival draws on people from all kinds of Christian denominations, probably most of whom also don't have a whole lot people in their home church who meet their need for questioning and examining every last little thing. If we all had that at home, there'd be no need for the conference.
So I know that it is unreasonable for me to expect my monthly meeting to meet my every religious need, and I don't expect that. And I know that when I speak honestly about my concerns and interests there, I am heard with sympathy and respect. And I take very much to heart Friend Martin Kelly's point in the blog post I linked to above, that "comfort is not necessarily what God has in mind for us," so I wince when I hear myself wanting to be more comfortable in my monthly meeting.
And yet...
I thought it was time for me to go back to worship, but every time I go to the meetinghouse, there's a pebble in my way that feels like a wall.
You, my Friend, speak my mind (Larry Matthews in Dunedin, NZ) larry.matthews@ihug.co.nz
ReplyDeleteI have found that a saying I saw is quite true: "It is not the mountain ahead that wears you out; it is the sand (or pebble?) in your shoe."
ReplyDeleteI have no answers and identify closely with many of your concerns. I still am struggling, after many decades, to keep my eyes on the mountain and try to listen to the still small voice.
I commented on Facebook, but I'll add here that I'm wondering whether this has become one of the phases of developing in the ministry for liberal Friends. Not everyone goes through it, but enough of us have that I don't think it's the foibles of particular individuals or monthly meetings. Unfortunately I can't answer what the next step might be. I worry that the RSOF doesn't quite have a next step. I have seen people leave and it saddens me.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't just your Meeting. It sounds like the condition you describe has become more overt and oppressive there, but many of the Friends I know in our two local Meetings would be right at home there, while I would probably have the same misgivings I have about my own group.
ReplyDeleteWhat's crazy-making about this is that we know that the Quaker way can work-- but we keep getting faced with the fact that it doesn't work automatically. A community of unbelief, following Quaker process, simply perpetuates its state of unbelief. To awaken the knowledge of God, unacknowledged and suppressed in so many people, in such a group... seems a task that only God can lead us through-- if we are indeed called (as may be implied by our very concern) to make that effort! Perhaps we should simply "let the dead bury the dead," and seek a community better prepared to resonate with the faith we've been given. I find people everywhere with more faith-- but no better place for them to gather, if only the pervasive deadness didn't drive so many people off.
I agree with your comments on SPICE. One of the things I have been thinking about is how to turn the testimonies around. Instead of thinking about them in our relationship to other people, I think about them in my relationship with God. For example, do I have integrity within my relationship with God? Is there simplicity within my relationship with God? Just a thought...
ReplyDeleteKristin Olson-Kennedy
Hi Su - I hope it's okay to post something here as a non-blogger!
ReplyDeleteWhen I came into Quakerism not all that long ago & heard Friends speaking of "Testimonies," I first equated the word Testimony with the way we used it in the little Evangelical church I grew up in - as an outward testament of how God/the Holy Spirit is moving in our lives.
My sense is that this is probably more like the way Early Friends used the word testimony or testament.
What I've found in the RSoF saddens me, though - "the Testimonies" seem to have become a kind of doctrine or creed unto themselves, rather than an organic experience of what it means to grow in the Spirit.
Testimonies in our meetings now seem to mean something that we "do" as Quakers (or "should" do), rather than a natural process of growing into a relationship with the Divine.... I like the way Kristin has turned them upside-down somewhat - how does the way I live reflect what is happening inside of me?
- Eric Evans, CPMM
I loved this post, and I think many other people will also. You needn't have worried that "probably no one is going to read it". Many will read it and recognize the truth in it.
ReplyDeleteI hope you will be able to stay with your Meeting and bear your witness humbly. If you stand long enough in a place that feels lonely, but stand with cheerfulness and faith, you may find in time that others are standing with you.
- - Rich Accetta-Evans
You've always got to go to the Inner Guide to discern what you need to do, and it may help to have some others whose discernment you respect help you to achieve clearness.
ReplyDeleteMy own journey sort of went like this: I spent a long time arguing for what I understood to be Truth. Then I realized both that this was pretty useless and somewhat arrogant. It clearly wasn't where the Meeting was at, and hammering away at them to change was not effective.
Then I started withdrawing, first from business decisions as I realized that I did not have a common faith with them from which to reach unity.
Eventually I seemed led to a faith community that actually shared a lot of common points with Friends, but was very clear about Jesus Christ being the center. I submitted my resignation from Friends and joined the church.
I might add that this was years after I had started praying that I would be willing to give up anything to follow Christ, even my Quaker identity which had been very important to me.
I know dozens of people who have wound up leaving Friends to follow Christ. The other alternative is to form a Christian Friends fellowship, which is a route I and some Friends tried.
I've been pondering the word integrity a lot lately. To be integrated. To be a complete sum of parts--to be whole. To me, right now, to have integrity is to have all aspects of my life reflect God's will for me (I feel very disintegrated right now).
ReplyDeleteI want my spiritual community to challenge me to live an integrated life and to call me on it when I'm falling short; in other words, to elder me.
I would guess you're not the only one feeling the same disharmony in your meeting, however, you are able to articulate it here and so might be a step or two ahead of the others. You might offer to lead a 2nd hour worship sharing on a word or idea that feels tender to you to see where it leads.
Mary Linda
This is the part that resonated with me: " I recognize that there is probably no congregation of any religious body anywhere in which everybody is all heated up about discussing God and God's will."
ReplyDeleteSome people define two types of Quakers (or religious people generally): those who've had some experience of God, however defined or named, and those who haven't. If you've had that experience, you're more likely to want to be able to talk about it, even though it's not always comfortable.
San Francisco Meeting actually has a goodly proportion of people willing to get all heated up that way. It's still not a majority -- by any means! -- but there's a critical mass. It makes for great conversations at the meeting retreat, for example; and at coffee hour, only sometimes.
Su, I loved reading your post and felt myself praying for you and your meeting. I appreciate your honesty. Right now I find myself in a Friends meeting that struggles over many decisions but has made the commitment to love each other, work through our difficulties, and strive to listen to the voice of Jesus. I am blessed.
ReplyDeleteNancy T.
A lot to think about here, Su. As a non-theist Friend, it is interesting for me to think about amny of the points you bring up. But, I do agree with your stance on "goodness". I am still in the stages of trying to learn more about Quakerism and as I do so, I try to match my actions with my words, as you say.
ReplyDeleteI have a want to be part of RCF as a member, but perhaps there is a reason that I have not finished my sporadically-worked-on-for-years membership letter.
Until reading this, I didn't even know about the SPICE acronym. Where have I been? Obviously, not immersed in Quakerism enough. Or, perhaps I am not listening as deeply as I should be or need to.
Asking the hard questions is one of the things that has always appealed to me about Quakers. And, you are no exception. Thank you for the plethora of food for thought.
I read all this (blog and comments) with a sense of wonder at so much pain. I'm a convinced Friend of about 25 years membership in my Meeting.
ReplyDeleteGod is an idea too big for my mind. I wrestled with this idea, trying to figure out how to define it and what it means for about 50 difficult painful years. Eventually I found in the Quaker Queries and Testimonies, however worded, a Practice and set of standards for my behavior in this world that frees me from theological struggles and arguments by giving me guidelines for how to live here and now, day to day.
Whatever God turns out to be when I leave this world, is a Mystery that I sometimes experience clearly, but cannot define or describe very well. And I believe that following Christ does not require me to define who or what Jesus is or was. The example of a life of faithfulness, faithful unto painful death is one I am unlikely to achieve, but the effort to be faithful is where I am called.
No one else's language defines my relationship with Spirit. Many messages are not for me. I hold in the Light each as he or she bears witness and am grateful for anyone who makes an effort to communicate his or her experience of the ineffable. And I humbly accept that maybe I don't measure up to what it means to be a Friend.
Su, you know I traveled through a similar relationship with our Meeting - and after ten years it is still ongoing. So I know the pain of this struggle, and I know it is a burden that does not feel light. So I hold you and your experience of the meeting in the Light - literally in the Light. That's not a saying for me. And here are a few thoughts about my own experience.
ReplyDeleteI stayed connected as much as I could through the years, perhaps attending meeting once every month or two, received my sustenance from Friends in "wider Quaker circles," and continued to grow. To do that, I found that I needed a long memory, and a balance of nurture and struggle. I had to remember back to a time when I was younger in the Spirit and struggled with the word God. My advice would be to continue doing as you are doing: to carry the struggle as long as you can, and find the places within the meeting, and outside of it, that nurture you spiritually.
My use of spiritual language has been developmental: I started out using very fixed language for my experiences, moved into a wide open place, narrowed again, widened again, each time changed and deepened - and the journey continues because the sounds and syntax of language are relatively fixed and can't really contain the Mystery without resorting to additional descriptors like you did above in your blog. But - in my experience - the Mystery from which we derive life and spirit, challenge and compassion, creativity and inspiration, is not fixed. At any rate, when I started getting involved in meeting again, I found that there had been some growth - in the meeting and in me. I no longer feel in Meeting for Worship that my ministry is being "pushed back at me." But I will also admit that I get the most spiritual nurture from hanging out with young Friends in First Day School.
I would bet that you have already considered that for some Friends the language (e.g., words like Spirit) might contain an inner experience that may be very similar to the ecstatic mystical ones that the word "God" helps describe for you.
But for those who have not had the experience, how can we expect more than that they will struggle with us - as they do in our meeting - and stay open to our experience, as we do to theirs? The wonder of Quaker meetings - including ours - is that they really ARE consenting to be leavened.
What an interesting topic. I think though that as much as you want your meeting to be more God-centered, there are friends who would find such an atmosphere uncomfortable. I would ask both parties why it is so important that one particular party line (for or against) be published as "Quaker"? I am not God-centered in the way you described but that is my point of view but I would not more insist on secular language to speak for the entire meeting on this point. Why? Because my point of view is personal and does not need to be built up (and is not at risk of being diminished) by consensus.
ReplyDeleteSu, I've had similar difficulties, with my meeting, with "that of God in everyone," with the shift toward thinly understood testimonies as identity. Lately, I've been thinking of this constellation of problems as a drift from content to values, a mounting tendency to define ourselves in terms of values, rather than in the terms we've inherited as our tradition.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you were led to speak and that it bore fruit. If you are not utterly alone in your meeting, perhaps continuing to testify when led will bear more fruit. Maybe even if you are the only one with such deep religious yearning.
The reality today is in the liberal unprogrammed tradition as express in FGC Yearly Meetings and Independent Yearly Meetings out west are no longer explicitly Theist or Christian faith. Like Unitarian Universalism we have evolved in the past eighty years into a non creedal religion with Christian roots. If this assessment is wrong please feel free to share your concern with me on this blog or by email. To be openly Theist, Christian or both can be a challenge! Question becomes how do you nurture your particular faith tradition in a pluralistic religion? Personally I think pluralism is good and healthy. But I also understand for example the way the Christian Church survived was through the retelling of the story of Jesus each Sunday. Reading of the gospels. What happen to a community when the story whether its about God, Jesus or Quakerism is not retold because we don't want to offend some congregants or new seekers? And the community sinks to the lowest common denominator?I don't have any easy answers. But I do know Jesus lived his life on the margins of established society. There is grace and freedom on the margins.
ReplyDeletePaul
There's a couple of issues that get mixed up in discussions like this. Liberal Friends have become pretty strict individualists. So while we talk an awful lot about "community" we don't really practice it in the way Friends have understood it--as a "religious society."
ReplyDeleteI would guess that individual Friends have always been more heterodox in belief than we give them credit for. But as a religious society, they have had offices like minister and elder, roles whose job is to call the faithful back to God. Friends saw themselves as inheritors of the Jewish tradition and the Old Testament is full of story after story of the Jews falling off the bandwagon to worship false gods, only to be brought back by prophets testifying to the true God. Friends recognized the need for this work and quickly developed roles. Eventually they gave more guidance to ministers and the Quaker laity more guidance through written works like the Rules of Discipline (now more commonly called "Faith and Practice" though my own is still officially subtitled a "Book of Christian Discipline").
The individualism of our age sees it as rude to state a vision of Friends that leaves out the most heterodox of our members. We are only as united as our most far-flung believer (and every decade the sweep gets larger) The myth of our age is that all religious experiences are equal, both within and outside of particular religious societies, and that it's intolerant to think of differences as anything more than language.
This is why I cast Su's issues as being those of a minister. There has always been the need for someone to call us back to the faith. Contrary to the popular opinion of our age, this can be done with great love. It is in fact great love to share the good news of the directly-accessible loving Christ, who loves us so much He wants to show us the way to righteous living. This Quaker idea of righteousness has nothing to do with who you sleep with, the gas mileage of your car or even the "correctness" of your theology. Jesus boiled faithfulness down into two commands: love God with all your might (however much that might be) and love your neighbor as yourself.
As a religious society we are called to be a people with a love of God and love of neighbor that is stronger than the language or understanding of individual members. Just like the ancient Jews, we need to be reminded every generation. We're not perfect but we can be made more perfect if we return to God to the fullness we've been given.
When I read old Quaker ministers I see a remarkable similarity in issues. Samuel Bownas expressed much the same concerns in 1750 that we see today. The difference is that (like Chris M's meeting) they had a "goodly proportion of people" who believed that Friends were a religious society and not just a community and who believed that God was ready to lead (whether they had experienced God or not: believe doesn't need the proof of direct experience).
The biggest challenge for Friends today isn't any particular theology but whether there is a Friends theology. Or, to be more blunt, whether the invidividual communities of Friends dotted across the landscape is the inheritor of that theology. Just following the modern testimonies doesn't put us very squarely in the Friends tradition--SPICE is just a recipe for respectful living. Some like Bill are finding that the best way to worship and live as a Friend is to join a non-Quaker church, which is kind of sad. I think God is still calling some forth to minister to Friends ways and to draw us back. How do we support them?
Without vision, the people perish. There can be diversity in many areas, but a body needs a shared vision to thrive and grow. Many Friends meetings (of course, Friends are not alone in this) lack such a vision. The direction not a few have gone makes having a real, substantive shared vision close to impossible.
ReplyDeleteWithout that, a body can really fail to be primarily a spiritual community. It winds up united by form of worship (of course, some don't believe in worship, but they accept the form) and various unstated bases of unity - like politics, demographics (tend to be remarkably homogeneous - middle class, white, high level of formal education, etc.), and listening to NPR.
When I couldn't see myself there anymore, I found a community which soon thereafter went through a process of discerning a shared vision. This focuses everything we do. Some people left, but we are stronger and more united.
This does not mean uniformity. We have no doctrinal requirements or statement of faith. Our vision dreams of a world that would be the Kingdom of God lived out, and calls us to start living that ourselves.
Jeremy Mott says, I'm one more who agrees
ReplyDeletewith you, Su. SPICE is a recent abomination. Like much else in what is politely called "cultural Quakerism" it seems
to have originated in the new Friends schools around the country---which often have no
Quaker teachers or Quaker students and don't teach Bible or Christianity or Quakerism. Not
even peace.
Remember your middle-school math for a minute or two. These are identities: Inward Light=
Christ Within=Spirit=Holy Spirit=Truth="that
of God in everyone"=Transforming Power. The first five are ancient Quaker (and earlier) phrases for the Present Christ, available to everyone, not just Christians. George Fox
liked to use Inward Light because this phrase
might keep him out of trouble for blasphemy for using Christ Within. The last two are
more recent phrases; the last is very recent indeed, coming from AVP. Of coursse, another
identity is Christ Within=Jesus of the gospels. All this may not be entirely rational, but it's what Friends know by
experience. I don't know of any other Christian group quite like us, except maybe a few Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox orders.
Don't suffer alone. There are now Quaker
Christian groups all over the place, for
example in Illinois Y.M.(FGC), in New York Y.M. (united), among Conservative Friends, and so forth. You can find them on the web,
in the FWCC on-line directory or in Bill
Samuel's website. You can be in touch with
sympathetic Friends on the Internet. Liberal
Quakerism makes some sense when it tries to
downplay the fact the Inner Light is the Christ Within, but no sense at all when it
denies that we can and do seek God within.
Peace, Jeremy Mott
Bill, Thank you so much for your clear
ReplyDeleteexplanation of why you left the Society
of Friends to help build a non-creedal
church, centered on Jesus. In New York
Yearly Meeting, I believe, even though
we have many non-Christians and non-
believers, you might not have felt the
same way. There are enough people in
the yearly meeting---including many
entire churches and meetings, and many
leaders---who believe in Jesus that the
the non-Christians often find
themselves following Jesus will-nilly.
We don't like to argue theology, but
instead seek, and sometimes find,
spirtual unity.
I believe that the
Clintondale Friends Church left the
yearly meeting some years ago because
they thought that we were not evangel-
ical enough---in other words, do not
believe all Scripture is authoritative
---rather than thinking we were not
Christian at all. Of course, they
had every right to do as they did.
Su Penn, Thank you for posting my previous
screed, which is very argumentative. I note
that early Friends were often argumentative
indeed, but usually with non-Friends. You
probably don't need this, but maybe you could produce it: a course Quakerism for Quaker
parents of students of primary-school age.
You might get a Pickett Fund grant for this;
it's very much needed. And it might even
be used in a few Quaker schools, though
I wouldn't bet on it. I commented on this
recently under "Diane Emerging Quaker."
Jeremy Mott
Jeremy, I'm glad to have you here (and everyone else who has dropped by). I'm going to have to re-read all of this over the next few days; so much food for thought.
ReplyDeleteI think I am hearing a strand in the conversation that I have heard before - that there has to be a shared belief in order to experience the depth, glory, challenge, vision, strength, vitality, and unity of God together. This just isn't true in my experience. What is this all about anyway, being here on this planet together, walking a Quaker path together, learning to listen and discern, minister and elder, educate and heal together? I have a vision of a human train heading toward the Lord, toward the Light, Jesus and Buddha at the front, and all of us reaching our hands out the sides and the back to help the stragglers clamber on board. Quakerism is a movement of the Spirit, and there is room for all of us in that great flow. Let's definitely not muzzle ourselves, but let's also listen carefully for the stirrings of the God juice in each Friend that comes to Meeting. Because it really is there, that seed of God in every one. And I'll be bold enough to say that I think it's our job to nurture these many seeds with appreciation and awe for all the many languages that God has found to speak and to be understood in. And if we are all getting on the God train together anyway, why not practice it here, and now, in our Quaker meetings? My beliefs change as I grow; but my dependence on God, and on God in people, including the people who can't yet speak any of God's names, just gets stronger.
ReplyDeleteI just found your blog today through Stasa's Musings of a Quaker Witch and what a post to read as my first one from you! What a deep, fascinating topic.
ReplyDeleteI've been attending a Meeting in the Northwest Yearly Meeting for about six months now and am finding something very different than at your meeting, but that still resonates on the same frequency. I am not a Christian, and until recently wasn't even sure about God but my Meeting is squarely in the Jesus camp. The NWYM is evangelical, for the most part programmed and very Christ centered. When I first felt led to attend this church all of that worried me. Are these really the Quakers I feel like I want to be a part of?
After 6 months of attending Meetings for Worship I can say, yes! Though comprised of real people with real hang ups and real preconceived notions I can see that this Meeting works very hard to really listen for God. They are not afraid to talk about God or Jesus, but are also not afraid to use feminine pronouns for that which they find, or use non-biblical stories to illustrate their findings. They are struggling with social issues large (stance on homosexuality) and small (who cleans up after coffee hour) in a truly god centered way. It is an amazing thing to be a part of.
I will pray that you are able to find that community you desire so much, either by working with your current Meeting or finding another Meeting, or leaving RSOF all together. I can see that you will continue to speak your truth and that god has your back. Godspeed to you in that task. Thanks for writing! :)
Su, thanks for the post. I like what many have said above, especially Friendly Mama.
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, "'Integrity,' though--there's another one of those human words. For a person to have integrity, her words and actions should be in accord with each other. But integrity does not require a person's words and actions to be in accord with God's will as they understand it."
I would have said that my (should "my" be bolded?!) integrity intrinsically requires that my words and actions be in accord with God's will as I understand it. Otherwise it wouldn't be integrity.
I had a hard time coming to terms with God-language, until I spent 2 years with evangelical folks and eventually stopped "translating" in my head, and God asked me why I continued to doubt. So....
From here on the web, it does seem as if you are being called to minister. Our meeting struggles mightily with its most vocal prophet, and we also struggle with stepping up to the responsibility to guide our ministers/prophets.
I look forward to meetin you at the gathering. Until then, I am holding you in the Light (of the spirit of God moving within you!).
Su:
ReplyDeleteI attended your meeting for several years back in the 1960s, unless there is more than one "Red Cedar River"; (that wasn't the name back then).
Nowadays, there is a Christian unprogrammed meeting in your state, which meets within driving distance of your city. Why not wish your nontheist Friends "good day", and try out the Christian fellowship?
"Within driving distance" in this case is over an hour. I have three little kids; it's not very realistic. I do know some of the people who worship there, and might visit sometime, but I don't think it's very workable as a home meeting.
ReplyDeleteAlso, since I'm not a Christian, it might be an out-of-the-frying-pan-into-the-fire situation. ;-)
Merry, you, Friend, speak my mind. Your image of a train resonates with me. I would only add that some stragglers are not ready to clasp hands and climb aboard yet. They haven't gotten to that place yet. And you just can't force it, otherwise any help is refused and perhaps even resistance sprouts. In my life, I encounter people over and over that are searching, even if they don't know it. And, I try very hard to respect them for who they are and what they do at that time, as it is not my journey, but their journey.
ReplyDeleteRecently, I had an encounter where a friend asked me to explain Quakerism to her young son, who is Catholic. The family has a very strong Catholic practice. My first sentence was "Quakers believe that there is that of God in each person." The child looked confused and before I could explain any further, the mother offered, "Quakers believe that God is inside everyone." This, to me, means something completely different. I left the conversation frustrated, but the child was no longer confused, because his mother explained in a way that he could relate to.
This encounter made me even more determined to try my best to let my children develop their own ideas of what Spirit, or God, or god means to them. But, to make sure that there is a safe place to ask questions and have doubts, and be embraced regardless of where they are in their quest...I never had any of those things. And, to me, the variety of Friends in Meeting can be rich examples of how to be in the world and experience that. I think we should bring back the God Panel for an RE workshop.
Thank you, Su, this is so rich and wonderful.
Merry, I'll try to respond in a friendly way.
ReplyDeleteThe world is full of Inward Light faiths.
Probably almost all Buddhists are Inward
LIght people, and many Hindus. There no
doubt are Inward Light Taoists; there are
definitely Inward Light Muslims (called Sufis)
and there are Inward Light Jews (Hasidim.)
There are, nowadays, even Inward Light people
who get to choose from all of these paths
and more; they are eclectics; we call them
Unitarians (the days when Unitarians were
all in some sense Christians are long gone.)
No doubt all of these Inward Light faiths can
lead to God. Certainly Fox and the early
Friends thought so.
But early Friends, and almost all Friends
today if you look around the world, are
not only Inward Light people but Christians.
We identify the Light with the Christ Within.
Isn't it our special responsibility to be
Inward Light Christians? Who else, what
other group of Christians, will take up this
task? Maybe some Catholic or Orthodox orders.
A few Friends can be both Friends and
Buddhists. Very few. Being a Friend these
days takes a lot of time and study, because
the Quaker world is growing and changing
so fast. I'm retired, but I could never
even attempt to be both Quaker and Buddhist.
I note that Unitarians expect a highly
trained ministry, to figure out all the
faiths they explore. Quakers do not demand
a highly trained ministry, not even pastoral
Friends. So ask yourself, which path do you
wish to follow? The Inward Light Buddhist
path,, troddden by so many people? Or the
unusual Inward Light Christian path, trodden
by few? (If you follow the Quaker path, you
still are welcome to explore Buddhism to
your heart's content, but no one could expect this of you.) Or are you really going to try
both? I think most people must choose.
Jeremy Mott
Su and Friends, Here is why I dislike the
ReplyDeleteSPICE acronym (besides its trivializing).
Our first and foremost testimony is left
out entirely: freedom of religion; freedom
from assent to religious beliefs and worship
prescribed by the state and the state church; freedom from any religious discipline other
than that of one's own community of faith,
voluntarily entered. This is the testimony
that hundreds of Friends died for in the
mid-1660's, and thousands were imprisoned for.
This is the testimony that gave birth to
several others, especially the peace testimony. I have read that Howard Brinton,
a Quaker systematic theologian, invented this
acronym. saying that we believed in waiting worship and that form of worship created the testimonies. Well, I think our history might well have created the testimonies, no matter
what form of worship we had. The testimonies,
especially the first, freedom of religion,
were historical, not systematic in origin.
Think of the refusal of hat-honor. In
about 1649, before Quakerism really was
established, the Puritan army in Britain put
King Charles I on trial. They intended to put him to death (and they did). But he was still their king. So the 59 Puritan judges refused to take off their hats, as a sign of their disrespect for him. Certainly this was the origin of the Quaker refusal of hat-honor, as it was called.
If you want to read my historical analysis of the origins of our peace testimony, read
my paper from the 1998 conference at Pendle Hill. It's available on-line; just google
"Jeremy Mott Protest Resistance" or "Chel
Avery Jeremy Mott." (Chel Avery was the
conference organizer,who did a great job; the
whole conference proceedings "Friends and
the Vietnam War" is in print and available
from Pendle Hill.)
Remember those hundreds of Friends who
died in British jails and prisons. They
didn't die for SPICE. Jeremy Mott
I think the need for Friends to be one way or the other is a purely western vice. We are less able to allow paradoxes to exist. As far as we are concerned things must be up or down, in or out. We are uncomfortable with things being both up and down (for example). As a result Friends get caught up in, as far as I am concerned, a made up need for members to be (for example) EITHER Christian OR not Quaker. In truth people who are both Quaker and Buddhist (to use an example cited in one comment) quite comfortably with no stress at all. I am a Friend, and I am not a Christian, I do not identify with Christianity. I find useful words in the bible, in Buddhist writings, etc. I imagine if I do look in the Koran I would find useful information there as well. Does this make me a Buddhist, Muslim, or Christian? Hardly. I'm a Quaker: I seek guidance wherever I'm led. The discipline of seeking enlightenment, being responsible for my behavior, being sensitive to leadings, striving to the testimonies speak to my condition. These are the things that make me a Friend. Frankly, if I felt the need to be Christian I would have remained an Anglican.
ReplyDeleteFriends and friends of Friends who are members of another church, or another religion, or no religion, or can't decide on membership or not: there's already a place,
ReplyDeletefor you, a school if you will, Wider Quaker
Felloship. They issue some wonderful booklets, two or
three times a year in English, also once a year in Spanish if you prefer. (Some members
of RSOF get these materials too.) Just
send a contribution to cover the cost if you can---say $20 or so---to Friends World
Committee for Consultation in Philadelphia and ask to be put on the WQF mailing list.
Rufus Jones founded this group in 1936.
Jeremy Mott
Paula, stop and think. Quakers, even liberal
ReplyDeleteLight-centered not Christ-centered Quakers,
at our best do not try to be everything to
everybody. If we did, we would be nothing
to anybody. At Friends meeting yesterday, in the after-meeting discussion, a Friend said
Friends should not, even after years of
internal struggle, ended up by clearing ourselves of slaveholding. In other words, like most other churches, we should have kept slaveholders in membership. How does
that appeal to you? Many early Friends ob-
jected to the idea of women ministers. So
many objected that this group formed a
schismatic body (the Wilkinson-Story group).
Eventually, they died out, and I am glad of it, for no other church recognized women as
ministers for 200 or more years.
During the 1960's and 1970's and 1980's
liberal U.S, Friends became completely undisciplined and largely secularized.
Meanwhile, Orthodox, i.e. evangelical
Friends, tend sometimes to worship the
Bible rather than study it. In other words, they become fundamentalists. Neither pole
of our faith has much Life in it, and
I'm afraid neither has much future. In
the rest of the world, Quakers of both
sorts seem to work better together; so
we're a vital and growing church worldwide.
Su, I urge you to go to the nearest Conservative meeting just once or twice.
Whether you believe in Christ or not.
You might have an experience that you
will never forget. Of course, this can
happen in any Friends meeting, but it's
much likelier in a meeting that looks
for contact with the Light among us.
Jeremy Mott
Jeremy,
ReplyDeleteRE: "Paula, stop and think. Quakers, even liberal Light-centered not Christ-centered Quakers, at our best do not try to be everything to everybody. If we did, we would be nothing to anybody."
I have thought and I've come to a different conclusion from you. It is not necessary to say more than we disagree. It is not necessary to imply some quality statement about either position - as in I must not have thought about it deeply enough since I've come to a different conclusion from you.
I would just like to remind you that there is indeed more than one position here and both have value.
A wonderful, clear and important post. Thank you. I have held positions in the past that, in retrospect, I do not think were of value. I do think that the question of integrity and plain speaking is constantly questioned when Quakers clearly do not say what they mean, especially when asked about what they believe. In some ways, and it hurts me to say it, we are a very deceptive religion.
ReplyDeletePaula, you are right about people of all sorts finding paradoxes difficult. I spoke
ReplyDeleteabout this in my talk on the Quaker Peace Testimony in 1998, which you can find by
googling "Jeremy Mott Protest Resitance". I
don't now agree with every word I said then.
But I certainly still think that the Quaker Peace Testimony is incontrovertible evidence
that Friends are s Christian church, and---
paradoxically---relates us to other Inward
Light religions, especially Buddhism. Please
read this for yourself; see what you think of it.
Yet I wish newcomers to Friends would try to
learn some Quaker history, and read Faith
and Practice, and be part of the worldwide
community of Friends, instead of just declaring that their ideas are Quaker ideas.
In the 1950's, two well-known interpreters
of Buddhism to the American public were
Friends. One was a professor at Syracuse
Univ., and the other at Cornell. Both were
published, I believe, by New American Library
in inexpensive paperbacks. I believe that
one of these men considered himself a Quaker
and a Buddhist, but maybe the other did not.
A third major interpreter of Buddhism to the
American public in those years was Jack
Kerouac, who of course was not a Friend.
More recently, perhaps the Dalai Lama and
Thich Nhat Hanh have been the best-known
popularizers of Buddhism in the U.S.A. And
Thich Nhat Hanh is a friend of Friends.
Sallie King, a professor in Virginia, is
both a Buddhist and a Quaker, and has written
about how she does it---and about other
Quaker topics. Yet none of the Friends I've
mentioned simply declared that whatever they thought might be Quakerly actually was so.
Like Buddhism, Quakerism is a community of
faith, a shared faith. Does this make
sense to you?
My strongest concern now is that Friends
think more about war and peace. Our nation
has been at war for a good nine years, and
it seems that we're planning on war forever.
We can support Friends Committee on National
Legislation. We can support Quaker service
projects around the world. Is there a good
way to join in amazing unarmed flotillas
that are trying to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza? Jeremy Mott
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI attended my first meeting yesterday and it was simply wonderful! I worry though about the points you make. I really, really like what I've read about the Quaker faith, but I'd prefer to be in a community that is as open and accepting of Christians as they are of those with a more agnostic view. Not that they are a LCD at all. Just because what I happen to be looking for is somewhere to carry on some of the tradition I was raised with as a Christian without some of the dogma. I prefer not to find a home base among those who feel we will burn in hell for choosing the wrong book...but who in most part base their faith on some of the Christian truths. I'd like my son to learn about Jesus and his parables and whatnot...hear about God and maybe some other religious stories as well.
ReplyDeleteA nice thought would be to educate him in the way we wish at home and supplement with Quaker services. I hope that after reading and learning more Quaker literature, I will find a nice home base for us perhaps attending other Christian church services as well. I just hope that Quakers haven't come full circle to where we are denying the bible of any merit or rejecting the Christian roots that perhaps has helped the movement to thrive so many years :)
Dolly, I wound up at Cedar Ridge Community Church, which is unaffiliated and sort of in the Emerging Church orbit. That's an amorphous movement which focuses on living the gospel in today's age.
ReplyDeleteSu, So many of your beautifully expressed thoughts resonated with me. After being a Quaker for about 40 years, I have struggled with what I perceive as the continued secularization of liberal Quakers, to the extent that I feel that Meeting had become for me, a nice social occasion with really nice people. In my journey forward, I realized that I was needing more than a comfortable place to hang out on a Sunday morning. Like you-I want a religion that challenges me, and so, have chosen to attend the Mennonite Church. I want to go to Sunday service; I look forward to it, and am challenged to study and live my life in a radically new way.
ReplyDeleteK.